Well. At least you won’t be telling them I told you so. 😂
Just so you have grace for the ones who recognize what a mess he has steered the country into. It will take being able to reconnect with the rest of us to keep them from being manipulated by another huckster.
Like I said - some aren’t part of the “basket of deplorables” - they didn’t vote for hate as much as desperation - promises he could lower the price of groceries and improve the economy (they were very naive). I think one day we will have to make sure there are a lot more civics lessons in school.
How so? I admit - I have stayed mostly independent my whole life because both parties have misbehaved now and again. But at the moment it seems like the behavior of the party in power is a danger to equitable society for all. They are doing their best to chill free speech, remove immigrants without meaningful due process, and threaten and punish anyone who stands against the administration. This doesn’t seem to fit the liberal democratic norms I was raised with.
I am an independent myself. I lean more Republican however. I Grew up in Ohio where for years, majority voted Democrat. However, they have switched because the Democrates have done nothing for the working class. Do I think everything Trump does is right.....heck No. Do I agree on how he is treating immigration....that's a yes and no answer. I do beleive a person needs to be here legally. Do I think they have a proper system in place to do so....No. Does that mean it is ok for them to come here because of lack of system....No. Does that mean even if we did have a good system in place we should take everybody in who have no criminal records and want to come here...No. Should be a limit each year. The ones who come here, even legally, should be required to learn English and pay there way. They should be required to attend classes and to work toward citizenship. Some people just talk, but I know first hand about Latinos. We are not trying to be like Mexico for example. Their responsibility coming here should be to assimilate into the US. Flying a flag here in protest should be automatically deportation. It is disrespectful to do so for the people who died for this Country and to US citizens.
Do I think every illegal here should be deported....No. However, there has to be a cutoff. My opinion is if you have been here 10 years or more, have no criminal record at home or here, you have learned English, can prove you have been here that long through tax forms, car and health insurance, and you pay your bills, you should be able to stay. Reason why....it doesn't matter Democrat or Republicans, it was their responsibility to correct the situation. Congress did nothing no matter who was in charge. Biden doing what he did the last 4 years allowing our borders open is inexcusable. Harris was tasked with being in charge of the border and has never even been. Birth Right Citizenship should be abolished unless your Parents are citizens. It is way over being abused by numerous Countries.
Then finally, we are a Christian Nation. Look at Europe and Canada. They are getting overtaken by Islam. Dearborn, Michigan is over 55% Islamic at last Census. Outside Houston Texas, they are wanting to build a 402 acre compound for Islamics. It is suppose to be a functioning City with their own court system and Government. US law will not apply. Why are we allowing anybody into our Country who wants to destroy it and it's people. They are not coming here for our beliefs and freedoms. They are coming here to take over and our Government is allowing it. Go do tour research, don't take my Word for it. I will not worship a false God. There is only one True Book and that is the Bible. Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ, not false prophet of Allah.
People got upset when Iran's high priest said that they "wanted to wipe Isreal and the US off the face of the earth". From where they are located, not a real threat to us, but they are living here. Have an open mind, do some research, and think about all I said. Grammer and spelling may not be all correct, but the facts are.
Rereading. So you also agree that British, German, Italian, French, Ukrainian, etc., flags and symbols should not be allowed to be displayed here, correct?
Which Christianity defines our nation? Is it Catholicism? How progressive is that Christianity? Is it the one of Rushdoony, that wants to replace the current legal system with Old Testament Law?
There are people who are being arrested at their court appearances for citizenship to get high enough quotas for Stephen Miller’s directives. Your argument suggests you agree that is wrong.
I am interested about your comment about knowing English. My experience with immigrants I know is the ones from the country originally often speak their first language in the home, in part because they receive hostility when they speak English poorly, so they avoid speaking it. Their kids, educated in American schools, are usually fluent in both. Now. You can insist those invaders should try harder, but what do you think about Amish? Should they also only speak English? Their children only learn English once they are exposed to school, and in most states are only required to attend school until eighth grade. They have been in the US so long their German doesn’t even match the current German spoken in Germany.
On the 402-acre settlement. It might take more research, but they are saying the right things regarding the proper application of the fair housing act, the DOJ closed their investigation, and it seems like Texas is using ecological impact investigations to delay the development because they don’t trust Muslims to build a housing development.
I will keep looking into that, but for now, I am finding nothing suggesting they are planning to arm jihadists to stand at the gates or something.
I as a Christian, beleive and go by The Bible. The number one book sold in the World. I don't want to seem like I am baiting you. I always want an honest discussioncussion. I know plenty of things I can post, but I want people deciding for themselves. Not as a political party or anything, but as Americans. I would look at sectio s of their Corhan translated. See what they study. I don't know about you, but I study/WORSHIP what I beleive in.
In your other poi t about turning them down so that they can't build. To me, that doesn't matter at all. They are still here no matter. If they worship their prophet and it says to kill us, they should not be in the US at all. If true, they are here to kill or convert. Consider it their missions trip.
Now - are you saying we are a Christian nation because being a Muslim is a bad thing? What basis are you using for insisting the US was founded as a Christian state?
Are you willing to confess your sins to a priest daily? Weekly? Are you willing to do the acts of penance if you do? How often do you think you should attend Mass?
I am also not baiting you. I am having this discussion very honestly. Tomorrow I will try to find time to contact the Islamic center if you would like. It might be neat to interview them for a later Porch Thoughts.
To me the people doing the wring are the republicans and how wrongfully they are treating the immigrants. It’s deplorable . Totally wrong. My ex husband thinks
I’m wrong siding with the democrats. I voted republican for years. I stopped doing that for the past two elections.
As always great points, Lisa. I am sorry to hear about your chicory. May I also say you handled that with grace I aspire to. Your emphasis on the kindness of his gesture speaks volumes about your own kindness and compassion.
The point I think that touched me most was not saying I told you so. This is vitally important, and something we have talked about hear as well. Thank you for continuing to speak out. I do not typically join lives but I would be happy to help if I can, without showing my face, if still needed. If not I will be happy to listen whenever you go live.
Did you ever read my favorite MAGA voter? Strangely, my sons’ dad is now a very liberal voter. I am not sure if he ever voted for Trump. There are very good reasons he is my ex. My favorite MAGA voter is my husband who passed in 2020.
You’re welcome. I figured people needed to realize I have known pretty strong Trump supporters in real life. I love more than one MAGA voter actually. A few seem a little afraid to be around me these days.
Thank you! I want to help us reclaim the power inherent in our vote when we stand united! I know we can do it — it will take awareness and communication, but we can get there. There are more of us than there are wealthy billionaires monetizing us for every last dime.
We are a Christian Nation. As far as what form of Christianity, it not important to me. What is important to me is any religion that takes away your rights and freedoms of choice. Ones that rape woman. Children. Sells little girls into marriage at a very young age. Does not allow their woman to have a job, go to school, drive, take a man's word over a woman's, and if found guilty, stoned ed to death. A religion that does not allow woman to show your face and treat them like subhuman. Also, a religion that sees you as a infidel a d mission is to kill you if you do not pledge your life to Allah.
Let me ask you this, would it be ok for an Islamic to come into a Christian Church ans give a sermon on Allah and at the end, he asked all of the Christian congregation if they wanted to convert and no one would. So he pulls out an AK 47 a d starts killing all of the Christians because they are infidels. He seems it as his mission because the Corohn said getting rid of anyone who will not bow to Allah should be put to death. Would that be ok? No, so if that is not ok, why let people into our Country who actually want to do that? Like I said before, go do your own research.
On Latinos learning English. I have never heard an American make from of them for trying to speak English. I used to be in management and I can tell you exactly how things work. We had during peak season, 3 shifts at 5 locations. On a given shift, it was not uncommon to have 500-600 Latinos on a shift at one location from all different Countries. American companies will always take advantage of illegals. However, many of the Latinos did not do right. Companies hire them through temp services to shield themselves. Most illegal Latinos buy names and social security numbers to use in employment. If you do that, it is a Felony. Many of the names ans SS#'s get used multiple times. They claimed 7 dependents on their tax form so they paid very low taxes. They have no drivers license, car insurance, heath insurance. A large group lives in a one bedroom apartment. They make one large meal and they all eat from it. Only one person ingroup drives. They split the rent and food cost and keep very little money. They wire a large portion home after each paycheck. If the are in a wreck, they will take off. If they get pulled over, they get cited into court but nothing ever happens to them. They charge them court cost, tell them not to drive, and that's it. You try that. They go out to the parking lot, get back into car, and drive off.
If they need medical, hospitals get no to very little pay. So the people who have insurance, has to pay for it in the long run.
On your religion comparisons, totally different than what I am talking about. I am comparing life to death, you are comparing the difference in a blue house or a red house in color.
To answer your question on quotas. No, I do not beleive in quotas for anything. It can screw the end objective because there circumstances that happen. However, with that said, I do beleive in some deportations based on the prior standards I outlined prior. If you go by that, the totals would still be huge. Remember, I said any illegal not here for 10 years or more and prove such as well as prove they have been doing things that an American would have to do. So no quota, but there would be large deportations. One way I would do it as an alternative native option, is I would hold all employers criminally liable. They are committing crimes by using and paying illegals. Tell them if they get caught and they did not use E-verify to check work status, they go to jail. You do that 10 times and put on National news. Illegals will go back home. US can even take them back if they like. Similar to same pay ya $1,000, free ride, and can later fill out the forms to come back legally. Only twist is going after the employers. The only exception I would make for this is farmers. They would have to follow some rules though. Most of our crops are imported anymore. That is a pro lem in itself.
Okay. From the top - You still didn't explain WHY you insist we are a Christian nation beyond "if we were a Muslim nation they would kill us all in our churches with AK-47s," which really doesn't argue for why Christianity is the assigned religion of this country and everyone must participate.
On quotas - we were told they would be getting "rid of the bad guys," but they are taking people away from their court hearings that were going through the "right" process. That doesn't seem like the people you are discussing. I never said Spanish-speaking immigrants, or Mexican immigrants. I said immigrants I have known (more than one language, believe it or not!) the first generation is uncomfortable speaking English because they feel like people look at them badly for "not speaking American like they should be." You assumed that apparently all immigrants are Mexicans, and you seem to dislike Mexicans for some reason. You also didn't address whether all other countries' flags should be banned. Have you suggested that your senator put a write a bill suggesting that? It might be very popular at the moment.
On women being treated so well by Christian religion:
"Biblical" things I have been taught in various Bible studies, Sunday schools, etc., across several Baptist churches (especially SBC):
a) Girls become women eligible for marriage at menstruation; but, sadly, the US law doesn't let you marry them that early
b) Men can be married to more than one woman, however, that makes them ineligible for church leadership; but, sadly, US law doesn't allow you to marry more than one woman. However, that does mean that it isn't adultery if you have sex with women other than your wife, as long as the other women you have sex with aren't married
c) Because Eve sinned, Adam ate the fruit because he loved her so much he didn't want her banished from the Garden without him, because she might die alone. Because Eve did not have the judgment to avoid temptation, women cannot make decisions safely, and that is why men must rule them. Women require constant male headship.
d) Male headship: Your father until you are married. If he dies before you marry, an uncle or brother, as long as the brother is over the age of 12 (they use 12 because it is the current age for Bar Mitzvah for Jewish males; which is a celebration of them entering manhood). After you marry, your husband is your male head. If he dies before you and you do not remarry, you go back under the headship of your father, uncle, brother, or if none of those are alive, you can go under the headship of your son, as long as he is at least twelve years old. If you remarry, you are now under the headship of your husband.
e) A woman may only do what her husband tells her to. If he gives her small tasks she is allowed to manage, that is fine. She doesn't have to bug him with those kinds of questions. If he tells her to work, that does NOT excuse her from her other tasks: cooking, cleaning, laundry, raising the children - she is to keep doing those as well. Any money she earns is her husband's. He is allowed to give her an allowance if he chooses to.
f) a woman may not deny her husband sex unless he agrees to let her
g) a good wife: always makes all beds, always has house clean. Before her husband comes home, all children are collected, cleaned up and readied to greet him. The house is clean, dinner is cooking, she has changed into nice clothes and done her hair and makeup. A good wife never discusses her day, always commiserates with how hard her husband has it, and makes sure the kids are perfectly behaved around him and not a bother.
h) if a woman is being physically assaulted by her husband, she should try harder to be a better wife
i) a woman cannot be raped by her husband
j) the only valid reasons for divorce are unrepentant adultery (and for men it is only adultery if they are sleeping with another man's wife) and abandonment by a non-believing spouse (but they will pull out 1 Peter 3 for that and say that a good woman is a blameless wife to her unbelieving spouse and wins him entrance to heaven with her goodness). There really aren't good reasons for a woman to be left by her husband. How do I know this? Because when I was suggested to take over the youth program at a Southern Baptist Church after my spouse left me for an 18-year-old, the deacons disagreed because I was "guilty of ADULTERY BY PROXY" for "allowing" my husband to leave me for an 18-year-old.
k) women should never have been given the right to vote (because of the Eve thing). However, since our country was naive enough to let that blasphemy happen, a woman must ask her male head (see above) how to vote, then follow his instructions exactly, because otherwise she might fall to the will of Satan and we would lose the country.
A lot of people that Stephen Miller has labeled "illegals" were here with refugee status and entered legally. With an EO, that has all been taken away and they have been given 30 days to self-deport. Others are here after they turn themselves in immediately after crossing the border (or while here on tourist visas, etc.) when they ask for amnesty, go through a credible fear interview, and then start a process here (that is a lot of the people currently being picked up at immigration court and summarily taken to detention). They have been using the process. But many don't LIKE that process, so they are literally writing things saying "no, you don't belong here anymore." That is why they got permission for the "third country deportations." These people have court orders saying they are fleeing persecution in their own countries and are afraid to go back. So we decided to ship those ones to a war zone in South Sudan where they don't know the language and are at high risk of physical trauma or death.
There are also people who deserve to be deported. I'm not arguing about those. However, many of those people are people ICE is afraid to apprehend, more difficult to find, etc. So they are going for the low-hanging fruit - migrants who showed up to pick fruit, men looking for work on roofing crews and construction at Home Depot, parents watching their kids graduating from kindergarten or elementary school. The people you're saying probably shouldn't be kicked out. That is why people are a little upset about what is going on. Well, that, and not even letting people talk to a judge before they are thrown on a plane and put in CECOT. But I am talking about Stephen Miller's arrest quotas, and the extreme lengths they are going to to meet them (I read somewhere he wants arrests up to 8000 per day by the end of the year). I am not talking about immigration quotas.
There was a major fuss in Springfield, Missouri (a little south of me) when they arrested a well-known, beloved community member for deportation. My immigrant friends have mostly been restaurant people. A good friend of mine died because guess what - immigrants do NOT get MEDICAID unless the state approves it, and when he applied for Medicaid, his cancer was stage 3 and not stage 4, so they refused him Medicaid. It meant he didn't have follow up after he got the cancer dealt with and didn't notice it recurred until it was so far advanced he lived barely six months after rediagnosis. Because Medicaid covering immigrants is a myth. There are strict regulations about it, it requires an appeal to the state.
They are canceling green cards for students (including spouses of citizens) if they participated in a protest saying that what is going on in Gaza is genocide, or wrote an op-ed in a student paper against Israel. There are even Jews who protest that, but these people are being arrested for a law that is usually used to get rid of spies. Recently a person was denied entry into the US because they had a meme on their phone that showed JD Vance bald. It used to be most of that would be covered by the first amendment and our right to dissent.
Ok, I am on computer now so It is easier at least this time.
So, Not sure what you mean by it just lost everything.
Christian Nation because the majority of the US population identify as Christian.
The quotas, I don’t care about quotas. I already stated that I do not approve of quotas in anything. The guy who is in charge of all of this has worked under 4 Presidents. Both Democrat and Republicans. Can you tell me how many were deported under each President’s Term? As far as them picking them up when they go to court. Do you know for a fact that they were there picking them up because they were criminals? Are they picking everyone up who goes to court? I doubt seriously they are taking everyone. There is a reason that they are taking some of them. He is also the thing, if you go to court and the Judge does not approve you to stay here, doesn’t that mean you are going to get deported. That is a chance you take when coming to a Country illegally.
In my experience, which is 9 years worth working with them, I would say I have a pretty good feel of it. Some people, just don’t want to learn another language. They do not want to put the effort into it. I am Bilingual by the way, so congrats on your two languages. I am pretty sure I said Latino. Latino speak Spanish. If you call another person Mexican and they were not, it was like you just called their Mom a bad name. I do not dislike Mexicans. We are having a discussion. I have not once accused you of being something. The flag thing, I addressed already, but I will address again for you. Once again, I do not approve of any Country’s flag to be flown in the United States of America as a form of protest. Keyword is “Any”. Now if your your here legally from any Country, and you want to fly your flag from your front porch for example as being proud of that heritage, than so be it. However, that does not have the same meaning as in a protest. The bottom line about both of those things is if your Country is so good, what are you doing here.
I didn’t say woman were being treated so well by any Faith. I said this is the way Islam treats their woman. The Baptist Churches you went to are a lot different than the Baptist Churches I go to. In none of the sermons or Bible Studies have we been told any of the things you are talking about. I am glad the law(States)restrict kids getting married. Kids should not be allowed to do a lot of things. They just can’t make proper decisions at that age. Kids need to be kids. You parents selling you out to an old guy when you are 12 or 13 for money is insane. Adultery is a Sin. I do not know of any Christian families that do what you are saying. Closest you are going to come is back in the 50’s. Just too much to go into there. Clearly not a representation of what is going on today in most Churches or Families. Sounds like your Church was some kind of cult.
So, this is a lot to sum up, but here I go. Just because someone comes to this Country and wants to claim Asylum does not mean it is valid. They learn how to get in and what to do. They send word back home so the ones coming will know what to do. Many have been caught before, and they know what to do. Ones here on refugee status, does not mean you can stay forever. Springfield, Ohio used to be a nice manufacturing city. They flooded the city with Migrants on refugee Visas. So much so that it overwhelmed the city resources. Hospitals, police, fire, social services, etc. A city that size can not handle doubling there population with the influx being migrants. So whether you are here on an Asylum claim or Visa’s, you have to be awarded the claim or approved for more time here. If not, you have to leave the Country. Do I think you should be deported to some Country that you do not know the language, NO. I think you should be given the choice of going back home or to another Country though. One thing you have to understand is that some of these Countries, will not take people back in. It’s sounds cold, but that is not our problem. We can give you the choice to drop you off to neighboring Country and let you sneak back into your Country. After all, that is how you got here.
Let me ask you this, if we opened the doors to another Country’s people to come here, don’t you think most would come? Coming here is a privilege, not a right. Do you think if we did it to one Country, that it would be unfair not to open our doors to all Countries? Let’s just keep it simple to one Country, how can our Country handle that many people and how would we screen them? If you think there is a housing shortage now and prices are so high on everything, tighten the supply even further. How could our First Responders and Hospitals handle it? Phoenix, Arizona, when people were coming over the border during Biden’s term, there is only one hospital in the 300 mile radius. The emergency room was packed so full, it may be over a day before you could be seen. You had to stay there or lose your place in line. Also, they did not have staffing to handle the influx. Guarantee you that people died as a result. Another thing, who pays for it. They were a non-profit hospital. The Feds said they would reimburse them on Medicaid Scale. You know how much they ended up getting? Less than 1% of the bill. When they asked the hospital how they make up the short fall, they said the people who pay, will have to pick up the slack. We are talking Millions of Dollars.
Do I think that they should be doing raids on farms and places like Home Depot. Mixed feelings about it. Part of me says that if you broke the law, your fair game. The law is the law and it is a law that goes way back. So not like Trump wrote the law. I think it is one of the risk you take when you do something wrong by crossing our borders. The other part of me says it is cruel because many of these people have been here years and have family here. If that is true, they often have kids that are US citizens. That is the reason I think they should do away with Birth Right Citizenship unless both of your parents are US Citizens. Then we get to my rule that if you are here for over 10 years, pay your taxes, have learned English, stayed out of trouble with no criminal record from where you are from, and doing everything correctly, you should be allowed to stay. One reason they are doing the raids on these places is because the Democrat City’s that are sanctuary city’s, will not cooperate with ICE. So they kind of pissed them off by shaking the nest. So now they are hitting them with raids. They will continue to do so. If only they would of handed the criminals over to ICE when they were released from their jails. But no, they want to be difficult. So how is that working out?
This is what I think should happen. To warn you up front, there is no way anything can be pretty no matter what. Go by my 10 year rule since our Government let the situation get out of control. They must prove everything in my rule and register. All others, give them 90 days to get their stuff in order to self deport under the current offer of free ride, $1000, and chance to apply to come over the right way. Congress, both Parties, need to get their head out of the hole and put together a program to speed the process up. Should also be a way for everyone to place an application without greedy attorneys taking these people’s money and giving them false hope. There is a ton of that going on. If someone is doing that, they should be arrested and charged. Once a speedy process has been created, then their should be a limit to the number allowed to come a year and they must assimilate into our culture. If needed, a coach to assist them. It doesn’t mean they have to give up their culture, but they must accept ours if they want to become a US Citizen.
The deletion of Green cards for college students. I am not up on that enough to take a hard stance. From what I do know, if a person is protesting peacefully without a non-country flag other than here, they should be able to stay. For the ones causing issues, they should be kicked out. Not all of them have been saints protesting peacefully. They need to remember, when you come to this Country on a pass, you are a visitor. If you have a visitor spend the night at your house, do they act out and trash your place? No, they usually actually make sure they do everything right even if they don’t do it at home.
Much easier on the computer this time. I have answered everything you stated, some it was the second time. The only thing I didn’t hit on was the things about family. I can tell you that I have been to 6 Baptist Church and a Christian Non-denomination in my life and we never preached by any of that. The way you were treated would not of happened at any where I have been nor would I ever go to one like that.
I am enjoying our conversation. I hope you are too. I had typed for a good ten minutes, somehow managed to disappear the whole thing without hitting reply, control z didn't bring it back. That was when I lost everything - I was frustrated.
There are allegations that some of the people with Mexican flags were there to agitate more than protest. Most protests I have had much information from strongly encourage American flags only. Your immigration comments kept circling back to Mexico. I have had friends from a few other countries.
I don't know if you have ever heard of RJ Rushdoony, 7-mountains Dominionism, or Christian Reconstructionism. Some of what I shared in the earlier answer started when I was going to a church where the pastor was actually a professor emeritus of a seminary and on the board of visitors at that same seminary. There was the beginning of "this is the Bible law, but the US doesn't allow it" discussions - girls are women at puberty, women all need male headship, a man can actually have more than one wife and only commits adultery if he has sex with another man's wife. At that church, another set of lessons being taught said that God, as our Creator, knows us best and what is best for us (I am sure you can agree with that part of this), and as such, the complete law of the Old Testament is the true way we should live our lives, because God designed it. At that church I was taught that I should follow the dietary laws, the Saturday Sabbath, etc.
When I relocated to Missouri, the lessons continued/elaborated on what I had been hearing earlier. When a deacon was preaching as a guest speaker one Sunday and discussing adopting the Old Testament as the law of the United States, he brought up the stoning of rebellious youths, and said that once we stoned one of them, we would have the best-behaved young people in the world.
Other sermons in that church (I find the decision to "not enforce the Johnson amendment" amusing - from pulpits for 30+ years at election time we were instructed that "anyone who votes to kill babies will burn in hell." That was pretty explicit voting instructions, to me?). But other sermons in church included ending the entire social safety net and turning it into block grants given to churches to manage. They thought the idea was awesome, because it would allow them to choose who got access to any assistance based on their "sinfulness." If you weren't a good, mostly sinless, productive church member, no help for you. They said as church people, they knew their community and knew the people who were drunks, who should try harder to get work, etc., and they wouldn't give them money unless they quit sinning. They also expected it would greatly increase church attendance, because people would believe they had better be well-known at church in case something bad happened and they might need help at some point in their future.
Since we are a Christian, nation, what is your stance on people who do not live as Christians? These churches were teaching that a truly just voting system would only include land-owning Christian males, because renters don't care about things like taxes and the like, and of course, women can't be trusted with decision making. You also can't trust people who aren't Christian to make good decisions, because they might support sin. Sin ruins a nation, you know...
At one point, while looking at all this legalism, I began covering my head in church. I was assured as long as I wore my hair long, I was covered enough, though (it still is long, all these years later).
Yes, I am enjoying it also. Are we going to agree on everything, No, who does. It is nice to be able to talk to someone that even though differing opinions, we can have a discussion. In today’s World, people do not respect others. It’s all about me mentality. People are afraid of voicing their views or wearing caps, shirts, etc. because they are afraid of being assaulted. The thing is, many people go off media only. They do not spend time to check into things. Are there also opinions involved, sure. I have a lot of opinions based on what I hear, what I check into, where I see things headed, and my personal experiences. Could I be wrong about something, sure. Could everybody else be wrong, sure. At the end of the day it is about respect for each other. I think also just because one party, or one person does things wrong in a certain thing, does not mean they are all bad. We can find that on both the Democratic side and the Republican side.
I know what you mean about losing what you typed. I have been doing all of this on a phone and it is killing me. I found I could do on the computer so not only do I have autocorrect not messing my stuff up, I do not have to worry about my fat fingers. So my spelling and grammar will be much better now. I can type faster also. So I typed out a big long thing on messenger trying to help a woman out with home issues in my area. Probably about 20 minutes or more worth on my phone. I laid my phone down and then picked it back up. All that I typed was gone. I was like, you got to be kidding me.
About the Mexican flags being at the protest. There is no law that says they can’t, but I think there should be a law that says you can’t. So, they can do it and no one can do anything about it. You can’t protest in Mexico if you are not a Mexican Citizen. Try flying an American flag there or most other Countries and see what happens. Just because we have freedoms in this Country does not mean you can do whatever a person wants. I have heard they were paying people to take a street corner during protest and that also, people came in to start issues. I do not know how you keep that out. However, it does label everyone as non-peaceful though when that happens. The people blocking the streets and vehicles, need to stop. It is only going to get worse. They are breaking laws doing that or interference, but a lot of restraint is being used to try to keep from escalating the situation.
I have not heard of the things you mentioned. I will look them up though. I am willing to read up on it. A lot of things that were practiced in the Old Testament is no longer practiced/preached in the New Testament.
On the circling back to Mexico….I guess sometimes I refer to them the most because we border them. They are what is in the news and the fact we are neighbors, just makes it the first thing to jump to sometimes. I understand Latino is many Countries and that is what I try to refer to. Example, girl who works at my building, Spanish and English speaking, but she is from Honduras. Her Daughter in Nursing School is US citizen since born here 22 years ago. So I do know a lot of people who are Latino. That is just one example. Immigration is complicated. If things were handled properly on the front end, it wouldn’t be complicated. It is complicated because our Government(Congress) has failed to do their jobs. Year after year after year.
On the voting stuff and abortion, I have not been to a Church that tells you how you should vote. There is actually a Federal law that says a Church can not discuss/tell you how to vote in order to keep their Federal tax exemption. On the abortion, they have not hit on too much, but nothing like saying your going to Hell. My stance on it is unless you were molested or raped, you should not have an abortion. My Wife’s stance on it is nobody should have an abortion. So see, even in my own household we disagree on things. Imagine that. We still live together…..lol.
So, with people who are not Christians….My view, is people should have the freedom to believe in or not in anything as long as it does not endanger others. I do not force Christianity down anyone’s throat. I try to lead a life of a Christian and if I see someone struggling with something, I may ask them if they want to talk about it. If they do, I talk to them with a Christian heart. Depending on the person and their acceptance, I may tell them examples of problems I have had and how God helped me through them. Sometimes, we just talk and my faith never comes up. I let the person and conversation lead what happens. Which ever way it goes, I do not make it where the person walks away thinking I just tried to shove religion on them.
So we all Sin. Even Christians Sin at times. As you very well know it is not like you become a Christian and you become the perfect little soul. I have seen dramatic changes in people who have become Christians, but they still have struggles. Think of it like an alcoholic who stops drinking, he will usually always want to drink. What makes me made is someone who claims to be a Christian, but other than coming to Church, there is no indication of that. Many people wear the Christian Badge of Honor, but they are fake. I go to Church, I see myself as a Christian, but I will always be a work in progress Christian. I try to do everything right, but I have a lot of failures. The difference in me that is different, is I call things like they are. I do not have a super ego that says I am all God mighty. I am willing to admit when I am wrong and say yes, I was wrong there and I learn from it. I do not put myself above others. I am that way I think because I had a rough childhood growing up and a lot of it I haven’t been able to overcome. My Wife says I am a negative person. That is not actually correct. I call myself a realist. In my job and in life, I look at what could go wrong. Reason being is that it is easier to not have something go wrong in the first place. If something goes wrong at work, it causes issues and I am the one who has to deal with it and the consequences. It effects a lot of people.
Anyways, back to your question. 1 vote per person whether Christian or not. However, like I said, another person’s religion or beliefs should not injure or harm anyone else. That is what draws the line. I have read over what you had sent me on the Quran. To be honest, some of it is open to interpretation. I am also not sure I can trust the source you posted from. It is not like they would come out and admit, yes, we are going to kill all of your who do not bow. I do not think the people they beheaded would agree with their religion. I am going to try to find some unbiased sources. I have a lot more research to do.
The no shoe thing had me laughing. That sounds like a good Church. There was a story of a new Pastor that his first day at the new Church, no one knew him but the Elders. He dressed up as a homeless man. Came into the Church and sat for service. No one would sit by him or talk to him. During the service, he would hear people talking about him. At the end of the service, he got up and went to the podium. Everybody wondered what he was doing. He stood there for a minute letting people think about their thoughts. He finally introduced himself as the new Pastor of the the Church. He said that he was doing an experiment to see if they were True Believers. He told them not one of them talked to him, welcomed him, or sat next to him to make him feel welcomed. He said that he couldn’t possibly Pastor such a Church of non-believers and that they should find themselves another Pastor and walked out.
I thought it was a good illustration. This man quit the Church he was a Pastor at, moved to another State to take this job. Went the Sunday before he was suppose to start, saw what he was up against/dealing with, and walked out. New State, No job, No pay, and at that point, No plans on what was next.
My Family has gone through a lot of deaths in the last year. Some saved, some not. I am saying that because if you do want to become a Christian or whatever other religion but you haven’t done it yet, think about this, you never know when your time may be up. Whether it is today, tomorrow, or 5 years or more. People have a tendency to put things off. I do the same, its just human nature. But the losses have made me realize a person can be normal one minute and gone the next. We take things for granted. Regardless, love more and hate less.
I can remember when my father got cancer, reflecting on how happy I was that he had married his third wife, and that she had challenged him about not going to church (he kept complaining that she shouldn't go to the United Methodist Church because they "were all secular humanists," and she told him if he thought there was a better church out there, to go find it and she would join him - he had not really been in a church since the death of my mother, at that point probably more than 15 years earlier). At the time, still being very deep in fundamentalist Christian churches, I worried that if he didn't return to church, he might not go to heaven. I struggle now, and have been for awhile, with the damage that exists in the way churches deal with people...
The current abortion ban in some states is rigid enough and has severe enough penalties that women are needing blood transfusions, going septic, and even occasionally dying, because doctors don't want to go to prison if they can't be completely sure the baby is dead (and they are allowed to do nothing that might kill a living fetus). In Florida, a state legislator there went to the ER with severe pain from an ectopic pregnancy, and doctors told her they couldn't treat her with the abortion drug (which would save her fallopian tube) because that was considered killing her fetus, even though it wasn't viable. She was fortunate enough to have the governor on speeddial, called him and had him order the doctors to provide her the drug. If she hadn't been an elected official with the governor on speeddial, she would have had to wait until the pregnancy became physically dangerous, lost the fallopian tube and required actual surgery for the problem. Rather than blaming the ban, she blamed Democrats for confusing doctors.
I struggle with the ethics of arguing for availability of abortion - I understand the arguments from the other side (very well). I also know there is nothing in the Bible that specifically prohibits abortion, and women who for whatever reason long ago who didn't want to be pregnant could have midwives give them herbs, etc., to end a pregnancy. These of course usually weren't provided after quickening. Though the fertilized ovum always has the potential to become a human being, for a time it doesn't have a functioning brain, etc. The fact that taking the decision from between a woman and her doctor to government edict seems to have created more risks for women (including women who wanted their pregnancies and had bad things happen).
Texas has a pretty strong anti-abortion bill, and ProPublica (I love reading them - they do a lot of deep dives on things) has followed maternal deaths, etc., since they took effect. More things to look at? One story that broke my heart was about a girl who started feeling really bad at her BABY SHOWER who ultimately died of sepsis because they refused to induce her because the baby wouldn't survive. The mother of the young woman is heartbroken. If her daughter survived, she might one day have another grandchild, but with the daughter dead, her mom has lost both, daughter and grandchild, with no hope of anyone else.
I hope to believe I only spread love in the world. I encourage people who feel really upset and overwhelmed by what is going on currently to hold grace in their hearts for people who might decide to join them one day who started out supporting Trump (you have probably read some of the rhetoric towards Trump supporters some places). I shared a written article awhile back about "My Favorite MAGA Voter." My deceased husband. I was blessed to share part of my life with him.
I'm surprised you never heard anything hinting that a good Christian only votes Republican. I can remember it in so many churches. The abortion argument was the easiest way to telegraph who you should vote for. I guess once gay rights was a thing, the months before the election you would also hear all kinds of sermons saying that "we shouldn't condone sin," "marriage only exists between one man and one woman," "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"...
On that one, it definitely seems more like writing Christian morality into law compared to some others. Two consenting adults doing things that hurt no one else shouldn't be a problem for a government that is not religious. I know Project 2025 plans to repeal those rights, make sure that our society only recognizes families with married, heterosexual parents, and also they plan to strongly encourage reproduction by those traditional families.
I realize that the actual "wall of separation between church and state" was in a letter written to the Danbury Baptists (who were worried they wouldn't be able to be Baptists in the US), but in the treaty of Tripoli we also state we are not a country run by religion. Though 60% of citizens might identify as Christian, that still becomes a complicated thing - some Christians are much more liberal than others, supporting a woman's right to bodily autonomy and gay marriage and trans rights. Which Christianity should make policies about that?
Don't worry about my Christianity. I responded to the altar call on the Sunday after Father's Day when I was four. I had decided I was going to do it earlier, but it was close to Father's Day and I decided to do it that day, but my dad worked (he was a state trooper), so I waited until the next Sunday, when he was off and could be with us. He then took me home and said he was sure I had no idea what I was doing and went over all the same exact scriptures that my Sunday School teacher, Mrs. Stover had gone over after I went forward. Though there have been many challenges over the years, I struggle to ever completely give up my belief. It changes some, but totally abandoning it seems impossible.
It is weird. My husband went to a church that split over women in leadership in church (he sided with the against it people). That church, though, had a Sunday School that was studying prophecy. Now, growing up in GARBC churches as a kid, I decided prophecy must be really hard, because so many sermons were out of Revelation, and they were always matching up the different parts and saying "this is supposed to be Iran, that is supposed to be Russia, and folks, this all means Jesus could come any day! Are you ready? Are you sure you will go to heaven?" These constantly changing interpretations (and Jesus failing to show up as the nukes fell on the heartland) ended up making me want nothing to do with taking a closer look ,prophecy. Old Testament prophecy we only pulled pieces out that pointed towards the Messiah and were told how Jesus fulfilled them in Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter sermons. Other than that, we ignored Old Testament prophecy.
When I got in that Sunday School class, they were literally just reading through Old Testament books of prophecy, word for word. It was there that I heard God describe his justice as care of the widow, poor, orphan and alien within our gates, to be the voice for the voiceless and the defender of the vulnerable. Before I read that, I thought God's justice was "believe in Jesus or burn in hell." Not only was it said once, it was also repeated, so many times. Even in Exodus, in the law, the Israelites are told to be kind to the stranger, for they were strangers in Egypt. There are echoes of this in the New Testament, of course, as well. The Good Samaritan, for one. When Jesus summarizes the Law and the Prophets as love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and might and love your neighbor as yourself. It probably had a lot to do with a shift in how I looked at things.
They weren't the church that started me on that path though - that had to be the first church I went to after the last Baptist church. After one too many times where I was to blame for my ex's behavior, I finally left. Then I ran into a man mowing the lawn of the church next to my house, and he invited me to visit their church (found out my first visit there he was the pastor). I couldn't find my shoes that morning, was running late, and decided to go to church barefoot. If they brought it up, I decided, they were not a church to attend. I went there barefoot, did the whole service. They had paper and pencils for busy kids to doodle during the sermon. They were small but friendly. You know how you recognize church leaders - there is a way they carry themselves, a way people address them. One of them was behind me. At the end of the service, he invited me for their monthly potluck, and assured me that he and his wife brought at least four dishes to contribute. I told him about my being barefoot, and said I was surprised no one mentioned it. He laughed and said, "You mean you didn't just kick them off under the pew like half the other women do?"
After being treated so badly no matter my obedience at the Baptist church, this church loved me. My ex had asked to move into my garage apartment, saying he couldn't afford rent and child support. He ended up paying me neither. When my ex asked me to lie to a possible future landlord calling to check his history, I despaired, because I knew I couldn't, and my ex was a violent person. I dreaded the call. It never came. That Friday, he called me and thanked me for getting him the new place and said he would start moving out immediately. That following Sunday, a very elderly woman came up to me, took my hands in hers and said, "We got rid of him for you." They recognized who he was and rented him their house, even though they knew he was a risk, knew he wasn't a great person, because they knew I was desperate to get him out of my garage but once he was there couldn't very easily get rid of him. That church probably saved me from wandering away from religion a bitter atheist.
So I can definitely agree "not all churches." Please understand you are not talking to a bitter unbeliever. You are talking to someone who, with some distance, and then some study, realized there are some very dangerous things being taught in some churches. What they are teaching is converting the US to a theonomy, with citizenship requiring Biblical obedience, and voting being limited to only Christian men who own property. Look up RJ Rushdoony, Christian Reconstructionism, and Seven Mountains Dominionism. I believe they are anti-Constitutional, personally. I believe that there is no religion established for this country, but rather, we are free to pursue religious belief as we see fit (so long as it isn't used to kill or hurt people - my rights end at the end of my fingertips). If we WERE a Christian country, many of our current policies would be antithetical. We are choosing to ignore the poor, widowed, orphan and alien within our gates, remaining silent and closing our eyes to the vulnerable, while further enriching the wealthiest among us. Our current elected leader has bragged about sexually assaulting women, mocked the disabled, and is a serial adulterer. None of that really suggests we are a Christian nation, to be honest.
So, from experience at the Church’s I have gone to, they have believed abortion is wrong, and woman leadership is not appropriate. Wrong is too hard of a word for the second thing. As a whole, I haven’t seen anything harmful being preached from the Churches I have visited. Maybe it is a Southern thing. Who knows. I guess you can hit pockets of bad preaching anywhere. I would never attend a Church like that. I have kind of a thing where I will not join a Church for 6 months. I want to make sure it matches my beliefs and are what they say they are. I do Tithe during that time, but usually in cash. I do that because I do not want to muddy the water with the decision on either end per say. The less they know about my finances before I join the better. I do not think what I can or can’t bring to the Church financially should have a bearing on how much you like or not like me. Keeps all neutral. I also will not join a Church who wants to know how much I make. Giving should be done from the heart, not out of threat. You are suppose to let God lead you. I give more than my Tithe, but a person should decide for themselves.
It is interesting - about ten or so years ago, a big thing was made of the fact that the name Junia was changed to Junius by multiple scribes over the years because "women can't instruct men," and in Romans, Paul tells them he is sending the letter with Junia, and if they have any questions about the contents, they can ask HER. That was an interesting thing to dig into. When you look at how Jesus treated women vs. the typical treatment at the time, his ministry affirmed and gave them rights they normally were denied. He apparently had a lot of female benefactors.
I have dealt with same sex attraction since I was pretty young. I finally recognized it in my early 20s, but the Christian obedience I was raised with said a woman needs a male head, must always have a male head... Doctor Dobson said if I tried to raise my sons without a man in their life after my husband left me they wouldn't grow up to be good men... etc.
I have lived a life with very conditional love, and I was rarely good enough. My husband that passed... he absolutely delighted in me. I was never loved so deeply or unconditionally in my whole life. I was a good wife, obedient, "dutiful" (if you know what I mean), serving... But I didn't "delight" in him. I made him happy, but I didn't enjoy it. One of the reasons it was always in the dark, so he couldn't see. I loved him very much, I just wasn't "in love" with him. And, in loving him very much, my heart broke. I wanted him to have a wife who was as delighted in him as he was in me. I wanted him to have a wife who was absolutely passionate for him. Instead, he got me, because I believed obedience was being a submitted Christian wife.
The poor man got a lie. He deserved better. Going through this has made me decide I cannot lie anymore. When I got to this new church, I googled LGBTQ+ affirming, and they came up. I didn't see or hear anything that suggested that people like that were actually welcome, though, so finally, I decided the safest thing was to approach the pastor and ask directly. He assured me they love LGBTQ+ people, and want to rescue them from the wreck of sin in their life. As long as they were celibate and didn't, in the case of trans, actually behave like the gender opposite what they were assigned at birth, they were welcome.
That was about two weeks ago. Now, with health issues, and the last two years of my marriage nursing a man who was dying of cancer, the idea of dating again - ANYONE - just makes me tired. I am a lesbian "virgin" - have never "sinned" that way. But the longer I thought about it, the more I realized I am not truly welcome in that church. If I came out to all of them, if I talked to women, they would wonder if I was hitting on them. If I attempt to talk to teenagers, they will wonder if I am grooming them. I will suddenly be either tragic (someone struggling against a deep thorn in the flesh) or suspect (someone who might at any moment attempt to seduce someone to sin). I will become that "sin," regardless of my history with it. When you are decried as an abomination from the pulpit, you cannot be a citizen of grace.
The really ironic thing about this - is it hit me deepest during a Bible study on grace. We were supposed to share our deepest struggles and experiencing God's grace in them, and how we were restored and encouraged through it. I had just talked to the pastor the previous week. I was told pretty much what has always been shared in conservative Christian spaces, "It's just like being an alcoholic - don't drink." But for some reason, theft, murder, adultery, blasphemy, dishonoring your parents... things like these are forgivable sins. Being honestly LGBTQ+ isn't. You are automatically suspected of trying to seduce people, groom children. Things which can be completely honest and regular friendly conversation takes on an awkward tone.
So what kind of Christian nation are we becomes a real concern. For me, being a Christian nation that does not care for the poor, widow, orphan, immigrant... a Christian nation that will let a couple hundred thousand children die every year since we cut off aid to starving children in other countries, that will let more than 10,000 poor people die annually due to lack of medical care - this doesn't seem like they have much claim to Christianity anyhow. We force women to give birth, then refuse help with the cost of childcare, medical care, and healthy food. I know, I know - if a woman can't afford her kid, she is supposed to give it up for a good Christian couple to adopt and raise. Not enough babies out there for adoption. Problem solved.
I hope you can forgive a sinner? I have worked very hard to follow all the rules.
I agree it is corruption. At the moment, though, some of this is legal corruption. Other things, like Trump’s meme coin, would be illegal corruption except the Supreme Court ruled anything he calls part of his administrative duties cannot be prosecuted because he has blanket immunity for all acts as President. 🙄
The county is a mess. Reclaiming it and instituting stronger institutional guardrails is a must.
You are always welcome. When someone engages in conversation with me honestly, it is always deeply appreciated. Time is finite, and any shared is a gift. ❤️
Well. Hmm. You are just framing the same problem with a different context. Right now, because of the Citizens United ruling, very wealthy people can fund millions of dollars into PACs to support someone’s election campaigns. The PACs are the corporations created once there was a green light saying “corporations are people, too.”
When that very wealthy person can fund an entire campaign for one person, they expect to be carefully considered by that representative to protect their interests. So in a way, that money became a much louder “voice” than the rest of the electorate.
Part of that is because they fund ads attacking the other person, etc., so now most elected people bow to the power of the wealthy for fear of having a competitor to oust them next election cycle.
We need to unite against this and then have people who can approach lawmakers and say candidly and confidently, “you write legislation that serves billionaires and you will not be elected.”
And one of our first steps once regaining power has to be a Constitutional amendment that ends the Citizens United decision.
I see the problem and I see your point. It’s all still illegal and fraudulent no matter how they “spin & rewrite the law” & “lobby” for strictly money. It’s all fraudulent. Most especially “the voice of money.” It’s all corruptly & racially “controlled.”
You’re right. I’m not debating you. I suppose I’m frustrated and all of these politicians have directly contributed to what my life has devolved into. I’m getting through it. Like you said: unity, organizing & leadership are essential to People. The misinformed propaganda that is created has gone too far.
I want very much to better educate the public on civics. I had an “aha!” moment the other day - we show up and vote every two years (unless local elections show up between), and some of us research the issues and try to vote for someone who seems to champion our point of view. Some of us do a little more by writing our representatives, showing up at town halls… but we kind of mostly limit our participation to elections. I think that, until we get money out of politics, we need much more robust organization, and people to represent it. Someone to show up and be able to credibly say - “the average voter is behind me on this, and if you vote in a way that harms us, you won’t be reelected.” Full stop.
Because until we use our power to leverage it against PACs, we won’t get much done.
My ex debates me and puts me down for not following Republicans. I have had people debate my viewpoint. I just don’t see how folks can respect a convicted felon and a rapist. It boggles my mind. As a nation, we are losing our values.
It is astonishing that the GOP drapes itself in the flag and carries a cross, yet most of their actual behavior is antithetical to Christianity. Deconstructing Evangelicalism has become so common these days because of it.
In the 1980s, Trump would never have been able to run for office. It surprised some when he got the nomination in 2016. Even in 2008 that couldn't have happened. It shouldn't have happened then. There were many reasons why we didn't trust someone who couldn't keep their private life moderately well-managed to be president of the United States, and there were so many red flags with Trump. I still don't get how he got elected the second time. I don't like to be a conspiracy theorist, but it makes the accusations of Skynet interference feel credible.
Sounds like this person is your ex for good reason. They should learn to respect your and other people’s opinion. Any person who respects a convicted felon has mental illness themselves that they refuse to look at and work through.
I think you are correct. I appreciate what you do and I respect your voice. I’m processing a lot. Don’t really know what else to say. Thanks again for your time.
You are correct, it’s hard to process with so much happening. But I stay ethical. Trump is not. I was telling my ex in texting today how inhumane putting folks in Alligator Alcatraz is. I can’t go with treating folks wrongly. Stupid DeSantis for coming up with Alligator Alcatraz.
Dealing with MAGA is like pulling teeth without Novocain , I would rather not do.
Well. At least you won’t be telling them I told you so. 😂
Just so you have grace for the ones who recognize what a mess he has steered the country into. It will take being able to reconnect with the rest of us to keep them from being manipulated by another huckster.
Not ready as long as they continue with their hate for others.
Like I said - some aren’t part of the “basket of deplorables” - they didn’t vote for hate as much as desperation - promises he could lower the price of groceries and improve the economy (they were very naive). I think one day we will have to make sure there are a lot more civics lessons in school.
And being Democrat is like jumping off the World Trade Center.
How so? I admit - I have stayed mostly independent my whole life because both parties have misbehaved now and again. But at the moment it seems like the behavior of the party in power is a danger to equitable society for all. They are doing their best to chill free speech, remove immigrants without meaningful due process, and threaten and punish anyone who stands against the administration. This doesn’t seem to fit the liberal democratic norms I was raised with.
I am an independent myself. I lean more Republican however. I Grew up in Ohio where for years, majority voted Democrat. However, they have switched because the Democrates have done nothing for the working class. Do I think everything Trump does is right.....heck No. Do I agree on how he is treating immigration....that's a yes and no answer. I do beleive a person needs to be here legally. Do I think they have a proper system in place to do so....No. Does that mean it is ok for them to come here because of lack of system....No. Does that mean even if we did have a good system in place we should take everybody in who have no criminal records and want to come here...No. Should be a limit each year. The ones who come here, even legally, should be required to learn English and pay there way. They should be required to attend classes and to work toward citizenship. Some people just talk, but I know first hand about Latinos. We are not trying to be like Mexico for example. Their responsibility coming here should be to assimilate into the US. Flying a flag here in protest should be automatically deportation. It is disrespectful to do so for the people who died for this Country and to US citizens.
Do I think every illegal here should be deported....No. However, there has to be a cutoff. My opinion is if you have been here 10 years or more, have no criminal record at home or here, you have learned English, can prove you have been here that long through tax forms, car and health insurance, and you pay your bills, you should be able to stay. Reason why....it doesn't matter Democrat or Republicans, it was their responsibility to correct the situation. Congress did nothing no matter who was in charge. Biden doing what he did the last 4 years allowing our borders open is inexcusable. Harris was tasked with being in charge of the border and has never even been. Birth Right Citizenship should be abolished unless your Parents are citizens. It is way over being abused by numerous Countries.
Then finally, we are a Christian Nation. Look at Europe and Canada. They are getting overtaken by Islam. Dearborn, Michigan is over 55% Islamic at last Census. Outside Houston Texas, they are wanting to build a 402 acre compound for Islamics. It is suppose to be a functioning City with their own court system and Government. US law will not apply. Why are we allowing anybody into our Country who wants to destroy it and it's people. They are not coming here for our beliefs and freedoms. They are coming here to take over and our Government is allowing it. Go do tour research, don't take my Word for it. I will not worship a false God. There is only one True Book and that is the Bible. Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ, not false prophet of Allah.
People got upset when Iran's high priest said that they "wanted to wipe Isreal and the US off the face of the earth". From where they are located, not a real threat to us, but they are living here. Have an open mind, do some research, and think about all I said. Grammer and spelling may not be all correct, but the facts are.
Rereading. So you also agree that British, German, Italian, French, Ukrainian, etc., flags and symbols should not be allowed to be displayed here, correct?
Why do you say we are a Christian nation?
Which Christianity defines our nation? Is it Catholicism? How progressive is that Christianity? Is it the one of Rushdoony, that wants to replace the current legal system with Old Testament Law?
There are people who are being arrested at their court appearances for citizenship to get high enough quotas for Stephen Miller’s directives. Your argument suggests you agree that is wrong.
I am interested about your comment about knowing English. My experience with immigrants I know is the ones from the country originally often speak their first language in the home, in part because they receive hostility when they speak English poorly, so they avoid speaking it. Their kids, educated in American schools, are usually fluent in both. Now. You can insist those invaders should try harder, but what do you think about Amish? Should they also only speak English? Their children only learn English once they are exposed to school, and in most states are only required to attend school until eighth grade. They have been in the US so long their German doesn’t even match the current German spoken in Germany.
On the 402-acre settlement. It might take more research, but they are saying the right things regarding the proper application of the fair housing act, the DOJ closed their investigation, and it seems like Texas is using ecological impact investigations to delay the development because they don’t trust Muslims to build a housing development.
I will keep looking into that, but for now, I am finding nothing suggesting they are planning to arm jihadists to stand at the gates or something.
I as a Christian, beleive and go by The Bible. The number one book sold in the World. I don't want to seem like I am baiting you. I always want an honest discussioncussion. I know plenty of things I can post, but I want people deciding for themselves. Not as a political party or anything, but as Americans. I would look at sectio s of their Corhan translated. See what they study. I don't know about you, but I study/WORSHIP what I beleive in.
In your other poi t about turning them down so that they can't build. To me, that doesn't matter at all. They are still here no matter. If they worship their prophet and it says to kill us, they should not be in the US at all. If true, they are here to kill or convert. Consider it their missions trip.
So. Your point is that all Muslims are murderers, and as such, a dangerous menace who should be eradicated at once. Am I understanding you correctly?
A couple things about murderous Muslims - if they kill all non-believers, why does the Quran include the instructions about the jizya?
Here is some context on the "Kill the infidels!" verse:
https://www.alislam.org/articles/why-does-quran-say-that-infidels-should-be-killed/
Now - are you saying we are a Christian nation because being a Muslim is a bad thing? What basis are you using for insisting the US was founded as a Christian state?
Are you willing to confess your sins to a priest daily? Weekly? Are you willing to do the acts of penance if you do? How often do you think you should attend Mass?
I am also not baiting you. I am having this discussion very honestly. Tomorrow I will try to find time to contact the Islamic center if you would like. It might be neat to interview them for a later Porch Thoughts.
To me the people doing the wring are the republicans and how wrongfully they are treating the immigrants. It’s deplorable . Totally wrong. My ex husband thinks
I’m wrong siding with the democrats. I voted republican for years. I stopped doing that for the past two elections.
Who is they that you are referring to in your statement?
As always great points, Lisa. I am sorry to hear about your chicory. May I also say you handled that with grace I aspire to. Your emphasis on the kindness of his gesture speaks volumes about your own kindness and compassion.
The point I think that touched me most was not saying I told you so. This is vitally important, and something we have talked about hear as well. Thank you for continuing to speak out. I do not typically join lives but I would be happy to help if I can, without showing my face, if still needed. If not I will be happy to listen whenever you go live.
Dealing with MAGA is like pulling teeth without Novocain , I would rather not do.
I can relate to that , my ex is MAGA. We had a text debate today!
Did you ever read my favorite MAGA voter? Strangely, my sons’ dad is now a very liberal voter. I am not sure if he ever voted for Trump. There are very good reasons he is my ex. My favorite MAGA voter is my husband who passed in 2020.
Is my favorite MAGA voter the name of a book??
https://wuzzittoya.substack.com/p/my-favorite-maga-voter?
That was such a heartfelt read. Thank you for sharing it, Lisa.
You’re welcome. I figured people needed to realize I have known pretty strong Trump supporters in real life. I love more than one MAGA voter actually. A few seem a little afraid to be around me these days.
Sage advice
Thank you! I want to help us reclaim the power inherent in our vote when we stand united! I know we can do it — it will take awareness and communication, but we can get there. There are more of us than there are wealthy billionaires monetizing us for every last dime.
great advice
I agree 100% this is the time to forgive them wwjd
Sent DM
I don’t see one?
We are a Christian Nation. As far as what form of Christianity, it not important to me. What is important to me is any religion that takes away your rights and freedoms of choice. Ones that rape woman. Children. Sells little girls into marriage at a very young age. Does not allow their woman to have a job, go to school, drive, take a man's word over a woman's, and if found guilty, stoned ed to death. A religion that does not allow woman to show your face and treat them like subhuman. Also, a religion that sees you as a infidel a d mission is to kill you if you do not pledge your life to Allah.
Let me ask you this, would it be ok for an Islamic to come into a Christian Church ans give a sermon on Allah and at the end, he asked all of the Christian congregation if they wanted to convert and no one would. So he pulls out an AK 47 a d starts killing all of the Christians because they are infidels. He seems it as his mission because the Corohn said getting rid of anyone who will not bow to Allah should be put to death. Would that be ok? No, so if that is not ok, why let people into our Country who actually want to do that? Like I said before, go do your own research.
On Latinos learning English. I have never heard an American make from of them for trying to speak English. I used to be in management and I can tell you exactly how things work. We had during peak season, 3 shifts at 5 locations. On a given shift, it was not uncommon to have 500-600 Latinos on a shift at one location from all different Countries. American companies will always take advantage of illegals. However, many of the Latinos did not do right. Companies hire them through temp services to shield themselves. Most illegal Latinos buy names and social security numbers to use in employment. If you do that, it is a Felony. Many of the names ans SS#'s get used multiple times. They claimed 7 dependents on their tax form so they paid very low taxes. They have no drivers license, car insurance, heath insurance. A large group lives in a one bedroom apartment. They make one large meal and they all eat from it. Only one person ingroup drives. They split the rent and food cost and keep very little money. They wire a large portion home after each paycheck. If the are in a wreck, they will take off. If they get pulled over, they get cited into court but nothing ever happens to them. They charge them court cost, tell them not to drive, and that's it. You try that. They go out to the parking lot, get back into car, and drive off.
If they need medical, hospitals get no to very little pay. So the people who have insurance, has to pay for it in the long run.
On your religion comparisons, totally different than what I am talking about. I am comparing life to death, you are comparing the difference in a blue house or a red house in color.
To answer your question on quotas. No, I do not beleive in quotas for anything. It can screw the end objective because there circumstances that happen. However, with that said, I do beleive in some deportations based on the prior standards I outlined prior. If you go by that, the totals would still be huge. Remember, I said any illegal not here for 10 years or more and prove such as well as prove they have been doing things that an American would have to do. So no quota, but there would be large deportations. One way I would do it as an alternative native option, is I would hold all employers criminally liable. They are committing crimes by using and paying illegals. Tell them if they get caught and they did not use E-verify to check work status, they go to jail. You do that 10 times and put on National news. Illegals will go back home. US can even take them back if they like. Similar to same pay ya $1,000, free ride, and can later fill out the forms to come back legally. Only twist is going after the employers. The only exception I would make for this is farmers. They would have to follow some rules though. Most of our crops are imported anymore. That is a pro lem in itself.
Oh no - it just lost everything.
Okay. From the top - You still didn't explain WHY you insist we are a Christian nation beyond "if we were a Muslim nation they would kill us all in our churches with AK-47s," which really doesn't argue for why Christianity is the assigned religion of this country and everyone must participate.
On quotas - we were told they would be getting "rid of the bad guys," but they are taking people away from their court hearings that were going through the "right" process. That doesn't seem like the people you are discussing. I never said Spanish-speaking immigrants, or Mexican immigrants. I said immigrants I have known (more than one language, believe it or not!) the first generation is uncomfortable speaking English because they feel like people look at them badly for "not speaking American like they should be." You assumed that apparently all immigrants are Mexicans, and you seem to dislike Mexicans for some reason. You also didn't address whether all other countries' flags should be banned. Have you suggested that your senator put a write a bill suggesting that? It might be very popular at the moment.
On women being treated so well by Christian religion:
"Biblical" things I have been taught in various Bible studies, Sunday schools, etc., across several Baptist churches (especially SBC):
a) Girls become women eligible for marriage at menstruation; but, sadly, the US law doesn't let you marry them that early
b) Men can be married to more than one woman, however, that makes them ineligible for church leadership; but, sadly, US law doesn't allow you to marry more than one woman. However, that does mean that it isn't adultery if you have sex with women other than your wife, as long as the other women you have sex with aren't married
c) Because Eve sinned, Adam ate the fruit because he loved her so much he didn't want her banished from the Garden without him, because she might die alone. Because Eve did not have the judgment to avoid temptation, women cannot make decisions safely, and that is why men must rule them. Women require constant male headship.
d) Male headship: Your father until you are married. If he dies before you marry, an uncle or brother, as long as the brother is over the age of 12 (they use 12 because it is the current age for Bar Mitzvah for Jewish males; which is a celebration of them entering manhood). After you marry, your husband is your male head. If he dies before you and you do not remarry, you go back under the headship of your father, uncle, brother, or if none of those are alive, you can go under the headship of your son, as long as he is at least twelve years old. If you remarry, you are now under the headship of your husband.
e) A woman may only do what her husband tells her to. If he gives her small tasks she is allowed to manage, that is fine. She doesn't have to bug him with those kinds of questions. If he tells her to work, that does NOT excuse her from her other tasks: cooking, cleaning, laundry, raising the children - she is to keep doing those as well. Any money she earns is her husband's. He is allowed to give her an allowance if he chooses to.
f) a woman may not deny her husband sex unless he agrees to let her
g) a good wife: always makes all beds, always has house clean. Before her husband comes home, all children are collected, cleaned up and readied to greet him. The house is clean, dinner is cooking, she has changed into nice clothes and done her hair and makeup. A good wife never discusses her day, always commiserates with how hard her husband has it, and makes sure the kids are perfectly behaved around him and not a bother.
h) if a woman is being physically assaulted by her husband, she should try harder to be a better wife
i) a woman cannot be raped by her husband
j) the only valid reasons for divorce are unrepentant adultery (and for men it is only adultery if they are sleeping with another man's wife) and abandonment by a non-believing spouse (but they will pull out 1 Peter 3 for that and say that a good woman is a blameless wife to her unbelieving spouse and wins him entrance to heaven with her goodness). There really aren't good reasons for a woman to be left by her husband. How do I know this? Because when I was suggested to take over the youth program at a Southern Baptist Church after my spouse left me for an 18-year-old, the deacons disagreed because I was "guilty of ADULTERY BY PROXY" for "allowing" my husband to leave me for an 18-year-old.
k) women should never have been given the right to vote (because of the Eve thing). However, since our country was naive enough to let that blasphemy happen, a woman must ask her male head (see above) how to vote, then follow his instructions exactly, because otherwise she might fall to the will of Satan and we would lose the country.
A lot of people that Stephen Miller has labeled "illegals" were here with refugee status and entered legally. With an EO, that has all been taken away and they have been given 30 days to self-deport. Others are here after they turn themselves in immediately after crossing the border (or while here on tourist visas, etc.) when they ask for amnesty, go through a credible fear interview, and then start a process here (that is a lot of the people currently being picked up at immigration court and summarily taken to detention). They have been using the process. But many don't LIKE that process, so they are literally writing things saying "no, you don't belong here anymore." That is why they got permission for the "third country deportations." These people have court orders saying they are fleeing persecution in their own countries and are afraid to go back. So we decided to ship those ones to a war zone in South Sudan where they don't know the language and are at high risk of physical trauma or death.
There are also people who deserve to be deported. I'm not arguing about those. However, many of those people are people ICE is afraid to apprehend, more difficult to find, etc. So they are going for the low-hanging fruit - migrants who showed up to pick fruit, men looking for work on roofing crews and construction at Home Depot, parents watching their kids graduating from kindergarten or elementary school. The people you're saying probably shouldn't be kicked out. That is why people are a little upset about what is going on. Well, that, and not even letting people talk to a judge before they are thrown on a plane and put in CECOT. But I am talking about Stephen Miller's arrest quotas, and the extreme lengths they are going to to meet them (I read somewhere he wants arrests up to 8000 per day by the end of the year). I am not talking about immigration quotas.
There was a major fuss in Springfield, Missouri (a little south of me) when they arrested a well-known, beloved community member for deportation. My immigrant friends have mostly been restaurant people. A good friend of mine died because guess what - immigrants do NOT get MEDICAID unless the state approves it, and when he applied for Medicaid, his cancer was stage 3 and not stage 4, so they refused him Medicaid. It meant he didn't have follow up after he got the cancer dealt with and didn't notice it recurred until it was so far advanced he lived barely six months after rediagnosis. Because Medicaid covering immigrants is a myth. There are strict regulations about it, it requires an appeal to the state.
They are canceling green cards for students (including spouses of citizens) if they participated in a protest saying that what is going on in Gaza is genocide, or wrote an op-ed in a student paper against Israel. There are even Jews who protest that, but these people are being arrested for a law that is usually used to get rid of spies. Recently a person was denied entry into the US because they had a meme on their phone that showed JD Vance bald. It used to be most of that would be covered by the first amendment and our right to dissent.
Ok, I am on computer now so It is easier at least this time.
So, Not sure what you mean by it just lost everything.
Christian Nation because the majority of the US population identify as Christian.
The quotas, I don’t care about quotas. I already stated that I do not approve of quotas in anything. The guy who is in charge of all of this has worked under 4 Presidents. Both Democrat and Republicans. Can you tell me how many were deported under each President’s Term? As far as them picking them up when they go to court. Do you know for a fact that they were there picking them up because they were criminals? Are they picking everyone up who goes to court? I doubt seriously they are taking everyone. There is a reason that they are taking some of them. He is also the thing, if you go to court and the Judge does not approve you to stay here, doesn’t that mean you are going to get deported. That is a chance you take when coming to a Country illegally.
In my experience, which is 9 years worth working with them, I would say I have a pretty good feel of it. Some people, just don’t want to learn another language. They do not want to put the effort into it. I am Bilingual by the way, so congrats on your two languages. I am pretty sure I said Latino. Latino speak Spanish. If you call another person Mexican and they were not, it was like you just called their Mom a bad name. I do not dislike Mexicans. We are having a discussion. I have not once accused you of being something. The flag thing, I addressed already, but I will address again for you. Once again, I do not approve of any Country’s flag to be flown in the United States of America as a form of protest. Keyword is “Any”. Now if your your here legally from any Country, and you want to fly your flag from your front porch for example as being proud of that heritage, than so be it. However, that does not have the same meaning as in a protest. The bottom line about both of those things is if your Country is so good, what are you doing here.
I didn’t say woman were being treated so well by any Faith. I said this is the way Islam treats their woman. The Baptist Churches you went to are a lot different than the Baptist Churches I go to. In none of the sermons or Bible Studies have we been told any of the things you are talking about. I am glad the law(States)restrict kids getting married. Kids should not be allowed to do a lot of things. They just can’t make proper decisions at that age. Kids need to be kids. You parents selling you out to an old guy when you are 12 or 13 for money is insane. Adultery is a Sin. I do not know of any Christian families that do what you are saying. Closest you are going to come is back in the 50’s. Just too much to go into there. Clearly not a representation of what is going on today in most Churches or Families. Sounds like your Church was some kind of cult.
So, this is a lot to sum up, but here I go. Just because someone comes to this Country and wants to claim Asylum does not mean it is valid. They learn how to get in and what to do. They send word back home so the ones coming will know what to do. Many have been caught before, and they know what to do. Ones here on refugee status, does not mean you can stay forever. Springfield, Ohio used to be a nice manufacturing city. They flooded the city with Migrants on refugee Visas. So much so that it overwhelmed the city resources. Hospitals, police, fire, social services, etc. A city that size can not handle doubling there population with the influx being migrants. So whether you are here on an Asylum claim or Visa’s, you have to be awarded the claim or approved for more time here. If not, you have to leave the Country. Do I think you should be deported to some Country that you do not know the language, NO. I think you should be given the choice of going back home or to another Country though. One thing you have to understand is that some of these Countries, will not take people back in. It’s sounds cold, but that is not our problem. We can give you the choice to drop you off to neighboring Country and let you sneak back into your Country. After all, that is how you got here.
Let me ask you this, if we opened the doors to another Country’s people to come here, don’t you think most would come? Coming here is a privilege, not a right. Do you think if we did it to one Country, that it would be unfair not to open our doors to all Countries? Let’s just keep it simple to one Country, how can our Country handle that many people and how would we screen them? If you think there is a housing shortage now and prices are so high on everything, tighten the supply even further. How could our First Responders and Hospitals handle it? Phoenix, Arizona, when people were coming over the border during Biden’s term, there is only one hospital in the 300 mile radius. The emergency room was packed so full, it may be over a day before you could be seen. You had to stay there or lose your place in line. Also, they did not have staffing to handle the influx. Guarantee you that people died as a result. Another thing, who pays for it. They were a non-profit hospital. The Feds said they would reimburse them on Medicaid Scale. You know how much they ended up getting? Less than 1% of the bill. When they asked the hospital how they make up the short fall, they said the people who pay, will have to pick up the slack. We are talking Millions of Dollars.
Do I think that they should be doing raids on farms and places like Home Depot. Mixed feelings about it. Part of me says that if you broke the law, your fair game. The law is the law and it is a law that goes way back. So not like Trump wrote the law. I think it is one of the risk you take when you do something wrong by crossing our borders. The other part of me says it is cruel because many of these people have been here years and have family here. If that is true, they often have kids that are US citizens. That is the reason I think they should do away with Birth Right Citizenship unless both of your parents are US Citizens. Then we get to my rule that if you are here for over 10 years, pay your taxes, have learned English, stayed out of trouble with no criminal record from where you are from, and doing everything correctly, you should be allowed to stay. One reason they are doing the raids on these places is because the Democrat City’s that are sanctuary city’s, will not cooperate with ICE. So they kind of pissed them off by shaking the nest. So now they are hitting them with raids. They will continue to do so. If only they would of handed the criminals over to ICE when they were released from their jails. But no, they want to be difficult. So how is that working out?
This is what I think should happen. To warn you up front, there is no way anything can be pretty no matter what. Go by my 10 year rule since our Government let the situation get out of control. They must prove everything in my rule and register. All others, give them 90 days to get their stuff in order to self deport under the current offer of free ride, $1000, and chance to apply to come over the right way. Congress, both Parties, need to get their head out of the hole and put together a program to speed the process up. Should also be a way for everyone to place an application without greedy attorneys taking these people’s money and giving them false hope. There is a ton of that going on. If someone is doing that, they should be arrested and charged. Once a speedy process has been created, then their should be a limit to the number allowed to come a year and they must assimilate into our culture. If needed, a coach to assist them. It doesn’t mean they have to give up their culture, but they must accept ours if they want to become a US Citizen.
The deletion of Green cards for college students. I am not up on that enough to take a hard stance. From what I do know, if a person is protesting peacefully without a non-country flag other than here, they should be able to stay. For the ones causing issues, they should be kicked out. Not all of them have been saints protesting peacefully. They need to remember, when you come to this Country on a pass, you are a visitor. If you have a visitor spend the night at your house, do they act out and trash your place? No, they usually actually make sure they do everything right even if they don’t do it at home.
Much easier on the computer this time. I have answered everything you stated, some it was the second time. The only thing I didn’t hit on was the things about family. I can tell you that I have been to 6 Baptist Church and a Christian Non-denomination in my life and we never preached by any of that. The way you were treated would not of happened at any where I have been nor would I ever go to one like that.
I am enjoying our conversation. I hope you are too. I had typed for a good ten minutes, somehow managed to disappear the whole thing without hitting reply, control z didn't bring it back. That was when I lost everything - I was frustrated.
There are allegations that some of the people with Mexican flags were there to agitate more than protest. Most protests I have had much information from strongly encourage American flags only. Your immigration comments kept circling back to Mexico. I have had friends from a few other countries.
I don't know if you have ever heard of RJ Rushdoony, 7-mountains Dominionism, or Christian Reconstructionism. Some of what I shared in the earlier answer started when I was going to a church where the pastor was actually a professor emeritus of a seminary and on the board of visitors at that same seminary. There was the beginning of "this is the Bible law, but the US doesn't allow it" discussions - girls are women at puberty, women all need male headship, a man can actually have more than one wife and only commits adultery if he has sex with another man's wife. At that church, another set of lessons being taught said that God, as our Creator, knows us best and what is best for us (I am sure you can agree with that part of this), and as such, the complete law of the Old Testament is the true way we should live our lives, because God designed it. At that church I was taught that I should follow the dietary laws, the Saturday Sabbath, etc.
When I relocated to Missouri, the lessons continued/elaborated on what I had been hearing earlier. When a deacon was preaching as a guest speaker one Sunday and discussing adopting the Old Testament as the law of the United States, he brought up the stoning of rebellious youths, and said that once we stoned one of them, we would have the best-behaved young people in the world.
Other sermons in that church (I find the decision to "not enforce the Johnson amendment" amusing - from pulpits for 30+ years at election time we were instructed that "anyone who votes to kill babies will burn in hell." That was pretty explicit voting instructions, to me?). But other sermons in church included ending the entire social safety net and turning it into block grants given to churches to manage. They thought the idea was awesome, because it would allow them to choose who got access to any assistance based on their "sinfulness." If you weren't a good, mostly sinless, productive church member, no help for you. They said as church people, they knew their community and knew the people who were drunks, who should try harder to get work, etc., and they wouldn't give them money unless they quit sinning. They also expected it would greatly increase church attendance, because people would believe they had better be well-known at church in case something bad happened and they might need help at some point in their future.
Since we are a Christian, nation, what is your stance on people who do not live as Christians? These churches were teaching that a truly just voting system would only include land-owning Christian males, because renters don't care about things like taxes and the like, and of course, women can't be trusted with decision making. You also can't trust people who aren't Christian to make good decisions, because they might support sin. Sin ruins a nation, you know...
At one point, while looking at all this legalism, I began covering my head in church. I was assured as long as I wore my hair long, I was covered enough, though (it still is long, all these years later).
Yes, I am enjoying it also. Are we going to agree on everything, No, who does. It is nice to be able to talk to someone that even though differing opinions, we can have a discussion. In today’s World, people do not respect others. It’s all about me mentality. People are afraid of voicing their views or wearing caps, shirts, etc. because they are afraid of being assaulted. The thing is, many people go off media only. They do not spend time to check into things. Are there also opinions involved, sure. I have a lot of opinions based on what I hear, what I check into, where I see things headed, and my personal experiences. Could I be wrong about something, sure. Could everybody else be wrong, sure. At the end of the day it is about respect for each other. I think also just because one party, or one person does things wrong in a certain thing, does not mean they are all bad. We can find that on both the Democratic side and the Republican side.
I know what you mean about losing what you typed. I have been doing all of this on a phone and it is killing me. I found I could do on the computer so not only do I have autocorrect not messing my stuff up, I do not have to worry about my fat fingers. So my spelling and grammar will be much better now. I can type faster also. So I typed out a big long thing on messenger trying to help a woman out with home issues in my area. Probably about 20 minutes or more worth on my phone. I laid my phone down and then picked it back up. All that I typed was gone. I was like, you got to be kidding me.
About the Mexican flags being at the protest. There is no law that says they can’t, but I think there should be a law that says you can’t. So, they can do it and no one can do anything about it. You can’t protest in Mexico if you are not a Mexican Citizen. Try flying an American flag there or most other Countries and see what happens. Just because we have freedoms in this Country does not mean you can do whatever a person wants. I have heard they were paying people to take a street corner during protest and that also, people came in to start issues. I do not know how you keep that out. However, it does label everyone as non-peaceful though when that happens. The people blocking the streets and vehicles, need to stop. It is only going to get worse. They are breaking laws doing that or interference, but a lot of restraint is being used to try to keep from escalating the situation.
I have not heard of the things you mentioned. I will look them up though. I am willing to read up on it. A lot of things that were practiced in the Old Testament is no longer practiced/preached in the New Testament.
On the circling back to Mexico….I guess sometimes I refer to them the most because we border them. They are what is in the news and the fact we are neighbors, just makes it the first thing to jump to sometimes. I understand Latino is many Countries and that is what I try to refer to. Example, girl who works at my building, Spanish and English speaking, but she is from Honduras. Her Daughter in Nursing School is US citizen since born here 22 years ago. So I do know a lot of people who are Latino. That is just one example. Immigration is complicated. If things were handled properly on the front end, it wouldn’t be complicated. It is complicated because our Government(Congress) has failed to do their jobs. Year after year after year.
On the voting stuff and abortion, I have not been to a Church that tells you how you should vote. There is actually a Federal law that says a Church can not discuss/tell you how to vote in order to keep their Federal tax exemption. On the abortion, they have not hit on too much, but nothing like saying your going to Hell. My stance on it is unless you were molested or raped, you should not have an abortion. My Wife’s stance on it is nobody should have an abortion. So see, even in my own household we disagree on things. Imagine that. We still live together…..lol.
So, with people who are not Christians….My view, is people should have the freedom to believe in or not in anything as long as it does not endanger others. I do not force Christianity down anyone’s throat. I try to lead a life of a Christian and if I see someone struggling with something, I may ask them if they want to talk about it. If they do, I talk to them with a Christian heart. Depending on the person and their acceptance, I may tell them examples of problems I have had and how God helped me through them. Sometimes, we just talk and my faith never comes up. I let the person and conversation lead what happens. Which ever way it goes, I do not make it where the person walks away thinking I just tried to shove religion on them.
So we all Sin. Even Christians Sin at times. As you very well know it is not like you become a Christian and you become the perfect little soul. I have seen dramatic changes in people who have become Christians, but they still have struggles. Think of it like an alcoholic who stops drinking, he will usually always want to drink. What makes me made is someone who claims to be a Christian, but other than coming to Church, there is no indication of that. Many people wear the Christian Badge of Honor, but they are fake. I go to Church, I see myself as a Christian, but I will always be a work in progress Christian. I try to do everything right, but I have a lot of failures. The difference in me that is different, is I call things like they are. I do not have a super ego that says I am all God mighty. I am willing to admit when I am wrong and say yes, I was wrong there and I learn from it. I do not put myself above others. I am that way I think because I had a rough childhood growing up and a lot of it I haven’t been able to overcome. My Wife says I am a negative person. That is not actually correct. I call myself a realist. In my job and in life, I look at what could go wrong. Reason being is that it is easier to not have something go wrong in the first place. If something goes wrong at work, it causes issues and I am the one who has to deal with it and the consequences. It effects a lot of people.
Anyways, back to your question. 1 vote per person whether Christian or not. However, like I said, another person’s religion or beliefs should not injure or harm anyone else. That is what draws the line. I have read over what you had sent me on the Quran. To be honest, some of it is open to interpretation. I am also not sure I can trust the source you posted from. It is not like they would come out and admit, yes, we are going to kill all of your who do not bow. I do not think the people they beheaded would agree with their religion. I am going to try to find some unbiased sources. I have a lot more research to do.
The no shoe thing had me laughing. That sounds like a good Church. There was a story of a new Pastor that his first day at the new Church, no one knew him but the Elders. He dressed up as a homeless man. Came into the Church and sat for service. No one would sit by him or talk to him. During the service, he would hear people talking about him. At the end of the service, he got up and went to the podium. Everybody wondered what he was doing. He stood there for a minute letting people think about their thoughts. He finally introduced himself as the new Pastor of the the Church. He said that he was doing an experiment to see if they were True Believers. He told them not one of them talked to him, welcomed him, or sat next to him to make him feel welcomed. He said that he couldn’t possibly Pastor such a Church of non-believers and that they should find themselves another Pastor and walked out.
I thought it was a good illustration. This man quit the Church he was a Pastor at, moved to another State to take this job. Went the Sunday before he was suppose to start, saw what he was up against/dealing with, and walked out. New State, No job, No pay, and at that point, No plans on what was next.
My Family has gone through a lot of deaths in the last year. Some saved, some not. I am saying that because if you do want to become a Christian or whatever other religion but you haven’t done it yet, think about this, you never know when your time may be up. Whether it is today, tomorrow, or 5 years or more. People have a tendency to put things off. I do the same, its just human nature. But the losses have made me realize a person can be normal one minute and gone the next. We take things for granted. Regardless, love more and hate less.
I can remember when my father got cancer, reflecting on how happy I was that he had married his third wife, and that she had challenged him about not going to church (he kept complaining that she shouldn't go to the United Methodist Church because they "were all secular humanists," and she told him if he thought there was a better church out there, to go find it and she would join him - he had not really been in a church since the death of my mother, at that point probably more than 15 years earlier). At the time, still being very deep in fundamentalist Christian churches, I worried that if he didn't return to church, he might not go to heaven. I struggle now, and have been for awhile, with the damage that exists in the way churches deal with people...
The current abortion ban in some states is rigid enough and has severe enough penalties that women are needing blood transfusions, going septic, and even occasionally dying, because doctors don't want to go to prison if they can't be completely sure the baby is dead (and they are allowed to do nothing that might kill a living fetus). In Florida, a state legislator there went to the ER with severe pain from an ectopic pregnancy, and doctors told her they couldn't treat her with the abortion drug (which would save her fallopian tube) because that was considered killing her fetus, even though it wasn't viable. She was fortunate enough to have the governor on speeddial, called him and had him order the doctors to provide her the drug. If she hadn't been an elected official with the governor on speeddial, she would have had to wait until the pregnancy became physically dangerous, lost the fallopian tube and required actual surgery for the problem. Rather than blaming the ban, she blamed Democrats for confusing doctors.
I struggle with the ethics of arguing for availability of abortion - I understand the arguments from the other side (very well). I also know there is nothing in the Bible that specifically prohibits abortion, and women who for whatever reason long ago who didn't want to be pregnant could have midwives give them herbs, etc., to end a pregnancy. These of course usually weren't provided after quickening. Though the fertilized ovum always has the potential to become a human being, for a time it doesn't have a functioning brain, etc. The fact that taking the decision from between a woman and her doctor to government edict seems to have created more risks for women (including women who wanted their pregnancies and had bad things happen).
Texas has a pretty strong anti-abortion bill, and ProPublica (I love reading them - they do a lot of deep dives on things) has followed maternal deaths, etc., since they took effect. More things to look at? One story that broke my heart was about a girl who started feeling really bad at her BABY SHOWER who ultimately died of sepsis because they refused to induce her because the baby wouldn't survive. The mother of the young woman is heartbroken. If her daughter survived, she might one day have another grandchild, but with the daughter dead, her mom has lost both, daughter and grandchild, with no hope of anyone else.
I hope to believe I only spread love in the world. I encourage people who feel really upset and overwhelmed by what is going on currently to hold grace in their hearts for people who might decide to join them one day who started out supporting Trump (you have probably read some of the rhetoric towards Trump supporters some places). I shared a written article awhile back about "My Favorite MAGA Voter." My deceased husband. I was blessed to share part of my life with him.
I'm surprised you never heard anything hinting that a good Christian only votes Republican. I can remember it in so many churches. The abortion argument was the easiest way to telegraph who you should vote for. I guess once gay rights was a thing, the months before the election you would also hear all kinds of sermons saying that "we shouldn't condone sin," "marriage only exists between one man and one woman," "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"...
On that one, it definitely seems more like writing Christian morality into law compared to some others. Two consenting adults doing things that hurt no one else shouldn't be a problem for a government that is not religious. I know Project 2025 plans to repeal those rights, make sure that our society only recognizes families with married, heterosexual parents, and also they plan to strongly encourage reproduction by those traditional families.
I realize that the actual "wall of separation between church and state" was in a letter written to the Danbury Baptists (who were worried they wouldn't be able to be Baptists in the US), but in the treaty of Tripoli we also state we are not a country run by religion. Though 60% of citizens might identify as Christian, that still becomes a complicated thing - some Christians are much more liberal than others, supporting a woman's right to bodily autonomy and gay marriage and trans rights. Which Christianity should make policies about that?
Don't worry about my Christianity. I responded to the altar call on the Sunday after Father's Day when I was four. I had decided I was going to do it earlier, but it was close to Father's Day and I decided to do it that day, but my dad worked (he was a state trooper), so I waited until the next Sunday, when he was off and could be with us. He then took me home and said he was sure I had no idea what I was doing and went over all the same exact scriptures that my Sunday School teacher, Mrs. Stover had gone over after I went forward. Though there have been many challenges over the years, I struggle to ever completely give up my belief. It changes some, but totally abandoning it seems impossible.
It is weird. My husband went to a church that split over women in leadership in church (he sided with the against it people). That church, though, had a Sunday School that was studying prophecy. Now, growing up in GARBC churches as a kid, I decided prophecy must be really hard, because so many sermons were out of Revelation, and they were always matching up the different parts and saying "this is supposed to be Iran, that is supposed to be Russia, and folks, this all means Jesus could come any day! Are you ready? Are you sure you will go to heaven?" These constantly changing interpretations (and Jesus failing to show up as the nukes fell on the heartland) ended up making me want nothing to do with taking a closer look ,prophecy. Old Testament prophecy we only pulled pieces out that pointed towards the Messiah and were told how Jesus fulfilled them in Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter sermons. Other than that, we ignored Old Testament prophecy.
When I got in that Sunday School class, they were literally just reading through Old Testament books of prophecy, word for word. It was there that I heard God describe his justice as care of the widow, poor, orphan and alien within our gates, to be the voice for the voiceless and the defender of the vulnerable. Before I read that, I thought God's justice was "believe in Jesus or burn in hell." Not only was it said once, it was also repeated, so many times. Even in Exodus, in the law, the Israelites are told to be kind to the stranger, for they were strangers in Egypt. There are echoes of this in the New Testament, of course, as well. The Good Samaritan, for one. When Jesus summarizes the Law and the Prophets as love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and might and love your neighbor as yourself. It probably had a lot to do with a shift in how I looked at things.
They weren't the church that started me on that path though - that had to be the first church I went to after the last Baptist church. After one too many times where I was to blame for my ex's behavior, I finally left. Then I ran into a man mowing the lawn of the church next to my house, and he invited me to visit their church (found out my first visit there he was the pastor). I couldn't find my shoes that morning, was running late, and decided to go to church barefoot. If they brought it up, I decided, they were not a church to attend. I went there barefoot, did the whole service. They had paper and pencils for busy kids to doodle during the sermon. They were small but friendly. You know how you recognize church leaders - there is a way they carry themselves, a way people address them. One of them was behind me. At the end of the service, he invited me for their monthly potluck, and assured me that he and his wife brought at least four dishes to contribute. I told him about my being barefoot, and said I was surprised no one mentioned it. He laughed and said, "You mean you didn't just kick them off under the pew like half the other women do?"
After being treated so badly no matter my obedience at the Baptist church, this church loved me. My ex had asked to move into my garage apartment, saying he couldn't afford rent and child support. He ended up paying me neither. When my ex asked me to lie to a possible future landlord calling to check his history, I despaired, because I knew I couldn't, and my ex was a violent person. I dreaded the call. It never came. That Friday, he called me and thanked me for getting him the new place and said he would start moving out immediately. That following Sunday, a very elderly woman came up to me, took my hands in hers and said, "We got rid of him for you." They recognized who he was and rented him their house, even though they knew he was a risk, knew he wasn't a great person, because they knew I was desperate to get him out of my garage but once he was there couldn't very easily get rid of him. That church probably saved me from wandering away from religion a bitter atheist.
So I can definitely agree "not all churches." Please understand you are not talking to a bitter unbeliever. You are talking to someone who, with some distance, and then some study, realized there are some very dangerous things being taught in some churches. What they are teaching is converting the US to a theonomy, with citizenship requiring Biblical obedience, and voting being limited to only Christian men who own property. Look up RJ Rushdoony, Christian Reconstructionism, and Seven Mountains Dominionism. I believe they are anti-Constitutional, personally. I believe that there is no religion established for this country, but rather, we are free to pursue religious belief as we see fit (so long as it isn't used to kill or hurt people - my rights end at the end of my fingertips). If we WERE a Christian country, many of our current policies would be antithetical. We are choosing to ignore the poor, widowed, orphan and alien within our gates, remaining silent and closing our eyes to the vulnerable, while further enriching the wealthiest among us. Our current elected leader has bragged about sexually assaulting women, mocked the disabled, and is a serial adulterer. None of that really suggests we are a Christian nation, to be honest.
So, from experience at the Church’s I have gone to, they have believed abortion is wrong, and woman leadership is not appropriate. Wrong is too hard of a word for the second thing. As a whole, I haven’t seen anything harmful being preached from the Churches I have visited. Maybe it is a Southern thing. Who knows. I guess you can hit pockets of bad preaching anywhere. I would never attend a Church like that. I have kind of a thing where I will not join a Church for 6 months. I want to make sure it matches my beliefs and are what they say they are. I do Tithe during that time, but usually in cash. I do that because I do not want to muddy the water with the decision on either end per say. The less they know about my finances before I join the better. I do not think what I can or can’t bring to the Church financially should have a bearing on how much you like or not like me. Keeps all neutral. I also will not join a Church who wants to know how much I make. Giving should be done from the heart, not out of threat. You are suppose to let God lead you. I give more than my Tithe, but a person should decide for themselves.
It is interesting - about ten or so years ago, a big thing was made of the fact that the name Junia was changed to Junius by multiple scribes over the years because "women can't instruct men," and in Romans, Paul tells them he is sending the letter with Junia, and if they have any questions about the contents, they can ask HER. That was an interesting thing to dig into. When you look at how Jesus treated women vs. the typical treatment at the time, his ministry affirmed and gave them rights they normally were denied. He apparently had a lot of female benefactors.
I have dealt with same sex attraction since I was pretty young. I finally recognized it in my early 20s, but the Christian obedience I was raised with said a woman needs a male head, must always have a male head... Doctor Dobson said if I tried to raise my sons without a man in their life after my husband left me they wouldn't grow up to be good men... etc.
I have lived a life with very conditional love, and I was rarely good enough. My husband that passed... he absolutely delighted in me. I was never loved so deeply or unconditionally in my whole life. I was a good wife, obedient, "dutiful" (if you know what I mean), serving... But I didn't "delight" in him. I made him happy, but I didn't enjoy it. One of the reasons it was always in the dark, so he couldn't see. I loved him very much, I just wasn't "in love" with him. And, in loving him very much, my heart broke. I wanted him to have a wife who was as delighted in him as he was in me. I wanted him to have a wife who was absolutely passionate for him. Instead, he got me, because I believed obedience was being a submitted Christian wife.
The poor man got a lie. He deserved better. Going through this has made me decide I cannot lie anymore. When I got to this new church, I googled LGBTQ+ affirming, and they came up. I didn't see or hear anything that suggested that people like that were actually welcome, though, so finally, I decided the safest thing was to approach the pastor and ask directly. He assured me they love LGBTQ+ people, and want to rescue them from the wreck of sin in their life. As long as they were celibate and didn't, in the case of trans, actually behave like the gender opposite what they were assigned at birth, they were welcome.
That was about two weeks ago. Now, with health issues, and the last two years of my marriage nursing a man who was dying of cancer, the idea of dating again - ANYONE - just makes me tired. I am a lesbian "virgin" - have never "sinned" that way. But the longer I thought about it, the more I realized I am not truly welcome in that church. If I came out to all of them, if I talked to women, they would wonder if I was hitting on them. If I attempt to talk to teenagers, they will wonder if I am grooming them. I will suddenly be either tragic (someone struggling against a deep thorn in the flesh) or suspect (someone who might at any moment attempt to seduce someone to sin). I will become that "sin," regardless of my history with it. When you are decried as an abomination from the pulpit, you cannot be a citizen of grace.
The really ironic thing about this - is it hit me deepest during a Bible study on grace. We were supposed to share our deepest struggles and experiencing God's grace in them, and how we were restored and encouraged through it. I had just talked to the pastor the previous week. I was told pretty much what has always been shared in conservative Christian spaces, "It's just like being an alcoholic - don't drink." But for some reason, theft, murder, adultery, blasphemy, dishonoring your parents... things like these are forgivable sins. Being honestly LGBTQ+ isn't. You are automatically suspected of trying to seduce people, groom children. Things which can be completely honest and regular friendly conversation takes on an awkward tone.
So what kind of Christian nation are we becomes a real concern. For me, being a Christian nation that does not care for the poor, widow, orphan, immigrant... a Christian nation that will let a couple hundred thousand children die every year since we cut off aid to starving children in other countries, that will let more than 10,000 poor people die annually due to lack of medical care - this doesn't seem like they have much claim to Christianity anyhow. We force women to give birth, then refuse help with the cost of childcare, medical care, and healthy food. I know, I know - if a woman can't afford her kid, she is supposed to give it up for a good Christian couple to adopt and raise. Not enough babies out there for adoption. Problem solved.
I hope you can forgive a sinner? I have worked very hard to follow all the rules.
“Money” does not “have a voice” at all.
Well. It seems to have a lot of influence on law-making and court decisions in our country for all its voicelessness.
Sure. However, “what’s happening” currently is fraud; not a voice at all. In my opinion, of course.
I agree it is corruption. At the moment, though, some of this is legal corruption. Other things, like Trump’s meme coin, would be illegal corruption except the Supreme Court ruled anything he calls part of his administrative duties cannot be prosecuted because he has blanket immunity for all acts as President. 🙄
The county is a mess. Reclaiming it and instituting stronger institutional guardrails is a must.
Thanks for being kind to me 🩶
You are always welcome. When someone engages in conversation with me honestly, it is always deeply appreciated. Time is finite, and any shared is a gift. ❤️
Amen, Lisa!
I totally agree with you, Lisa.
Well. Hmm. You are just framing the same problem with a different context. Right now, because of the Citizens United ruling, very wealthy people can fund millions of dollars into PACs to support someone’s election campaigns. The PACs are the corporations created once there was a green light saying “corporations are people, too.”
When that very wealthy person can fund an entire campaign for one person, they expect to be carefully considered by that representative to protect their interests. So in a way, that money became a much louder “voice” than the rest of the electorate.
Part of that is because they fund ads attacking the other person, etc., so now most elected people bow to the power of the wealthy for fear of having a competitor to oust them next election cycle.
We need to unite against this and then have people who can approach lawmakers and say candidly and confidently, “you write legislation that serves billionaires and you will not be elected.”
And one of our first steps once regaining power has to be a Constitutional amendment that ends the Citizens United decision.
I see the problem and I see your point. It’s all still illegal and fraudulent no matter how they “spin & rewrite the law” & “lobby” for strictly money. It’s all fraudulent. Most especially “the voice of money.” It’s all corruptly & racially “controlled.”
You are exactly right, Kostadenos!!!i It is frustrating to see the illegalness. And defrauding taking place.
Thank you for your kindness. This is all so beyond frustrating…
Amen Lisa!
You’re right. I’m not debating you. I suppose I’m frustrated and all of these politicians have directly contributed to what my life has devolved into. I’m getting through it. Like you said: unity, organizing & leadership are essential to People. The misinformed propaganda that is created has gone too far.
I want very much to better educate the public on civics. I had an “aha!” moment the other day - we show up and vote every two years (unless local elections show up between), and some of us research the issues and try to vote for someone who seems to champion our point of view. Some of us do a little more by writing our representatives, showing up at town halls… but we kind of mostly limit our participation to elections. I think that, until we get money out of politics, we need much more robust organization, and people to represent it. Someone to show up and be able to credibly say - “the average voter is behind me on this, and if you vote in a way that harms us, you won’t be reelected.” Full stop.
Because until we use our power to leverage it against PACs, we won’t get much done.
You said it … if you vote in a way that harms us, you won’t be elected. I wish people followed that advice!
My ex debates me and puts me down for not following Republicans. I have had people debate my viewpoint. I just don’t see how folks can respect a convicted felon and a rapist. It boggles my mind. As a nation, we are losing our values.
It is astonishing that the GOP drapes itself in the flag and carries a cross, yet most of their actual behavior is antithetical to Christianity. Deconstructing Evangelicalism has become so common these days because of it.
In the 1980s, Trump would never have been able to run for office. It surprised some when he got the nomination in 2016. Even in 2008 that couldn't have happened. It shouldn't have happened then. There were many reasons why we didn't trust someone who couldn't keep their private life moderately well-managed to be president of the United States, and there were so many red flags with Trump. I still don't get how he got elected the second time. I don't like to be a conspiracy theorist, but it makes the accusations of Skynet interference feel credible.
Sounds like this person is your ex for good reason. They should learn to respect your and other people’s opinion. Any person who respects a convicted felon has mental illness themselves that they refuse to look at and work through.
Well money got Trump elected , ie Elon Musk!
Fraudulent money transactions did help the insurrectionist squat the White House yes, but “win,” this administration did not.
I think you are correct. I appreciate what you do and I respect your voice. I’m processing a lot. Don’t really know what else to say. Thanks again for your time.
You are correct, it’s hard to process with so much happening. But I stay ethical. Trump is not. I was telling my ex in texting today how inhumane putting folks in Alligator Alcatraz is. I can’t go with treating folks wrongly. Stupid DeSantis for coming up with Alligator Alcatraz.
There is nothing humane about putting people in “concentration camps.”
It’s sickening and disgusting. The Alligator Alcatraz is despicable with house it is being run and the unsanitary ness , etc.
Yeah. You would think we would have standards for how we treat people in detention. 🤔